| drakkarDVG |
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Hi, its been
awhile since I've been around, but I couldn't stay away.
For
a while ( a few months) I've been wondering about the large works of
art in the Dwemer ruins under Mournhold. I took a few notes about
them a few weeks ago, and they're vague, so bear with me while I get
to the questions.
There are eleven of them, including the
fallen one, which I will get to last. I'll go counter-clockwise from
the entrance from the statue in the plaza. The first I was going to
call a "masked warrior", but closer examination determined it may
not be a warrior at all, so its the "masked figure". The next is a
warrior, one with a long straight beard. In between this and the
next work I have the words "multi-legged", but I don't remember
which it refers to. Number three is what appears to be a tower.
Number four is some sort of beast with a dark head. The fifth is a
scarab or something, the sixth is a serpent. A red ash-zombie is the
seventh, which really intrigued me. Eight I just said had a strange
head, and that nine was a female. The tenth was a robed figure,
possibly a mage? The last is the aforementioned fallen one, and it
is a female undoubtedly.
What significance in Dwemer culture
could these figures have? I know we'll never know specifics, but I
guess I'd just like to know whether or not someone some guy was just
like "Put in some weird looking stuff on the walls, or if these were
were important figures or symbols. Could one be Dumac? Kagrenac?
I'll come back later, I've more investigating to do.
--------------------
Seen any elves?
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I know the
scarab is the symbol of Lorkhan. That is probably the only thing we
can ever be partially sure about with these.
--------------------
Member of the Forum Scholars Guild
Member of Greater Dwemer Ruins, Modder in charge of Nchuleft
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| drakkarDVG |
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I beg to
differ, friend.
Okay, I’m back with an exciting revelation.
First though, I’ll just say that after re-examining Hearthfire Hall,
I’ve found there are twelve of these pieces, and heres a brief
analysis (skip down to #11 for the revelation):
1. Masked
Figure. Actually it looks like it could be an Animunculi, or Dwemer
construct, in the shape of a man/mer. If it isn’t a construct, then
it appears to be a person in either a full suit or nearly that of
armor, including Dwemer boots. Some straps seem to be hanging done
from it, only to go back up to re-connect with the figure.
2.
Bearded Warrior. Wearing some armor, carrying a saber (!,?) and
shield. Elven ears.
3. Appears to be a multi-limbed creature,
insect-like, a previously unseen construct?
4. Tower or
spire-like peak with smaller towers, two dark shapes at right.
5. Dark-headed beast. Behtmeri (sp)? Is that a tail I see?
Pointed ears, but wide. Orc? Khajiit?
6. Scarab beetle symbol.
Lorkhan? His heart?
7. A horned serpent (single horn), mouth
open, fangs and tongue visible. Are those gills?
8. What appears
to be an ash-zombie, with a beard and wispy legs.
9. A figure
holding a long object. A weapon? Lower portion of work is difficult
to understand. The head seems to be encased in a helmet which is
attached to something that is not shown on the piece.
10.
Scantily-clad female, long hair.
11. I’ve just realized that
this is Sotha Sil. A mage in robes, the mask, the beard, THE ARMS!
Additionally, the robes appear to have Dwemer script on them.
12. The fallen woman. Long hair, elven ears, long robes or
skirts. She seems proud, whoever she is.
I think the
presence of Seht’s image, as well as the scarab, may provide us with
an idea of how important the rest are in Dwemer culture.
Give
these a look, if you have the editor it may be easier than a high
gamma setting and lots of levitation spells.
Okay, I'm going
back to investigating after visiting you guys. The work of a scholar
is never done, it seems.
--------------------
Seen any
elves?
Edited by drakkarDVG (08/11/03
04:25 AM)
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| mafafu |
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The Seprent
Sep, of Yokudan tradition, is Lorkhan. But, I don't know if there is
any connection within Dwemer history.
What makes you think
that the mage featured is Sotha Sil? I haven't looked at it, so I
can't comment on its resemblance, but I wouldn't think that Sil
would be featured prominently in Dwemer history. In fact, the Dwemer
disappeared before the apotheosis of Sotha Sil, so it seems unlikely
that Sil would be included here. However, he was a contemporary of
the Dwemer, so it's not impossible.
--------------------
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of
Vivec
Far be it from
me to question your stupid civilization or its dumb customs... -
Fry, Futurama
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| ELDRiTcH_TES |
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I find the
mechanical figure very intruiging, it's possibly a hint to how
advanced they really were before disapearing. It's very likely that
they managed to create a cyborg in the image of a mer. Then again it
might just be their newest most protective armour yet  .
--------------------
The glories of our blood and
state
Are shadows, not substantial things;
There is no
armour against fate;
Death lays his icy hands on kings. - James
Shirley
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| Vireyar |
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I always took
these to be representations of the major constellations: Atronach
(1), Warrior (2), Tower (4), Ritual (6? - maybe whoever created
these knew Kagrenac's plan to ascend the Dwemer to godhood), Serpent
(7), Lady (10, or 12?), Apprentice or Mage (8 or 11), which leaves
the Lord, Lover, Shadow, Steed (maybe this is 5?) and Thief, or
whatever the Dwemer interpretations of them were. The Dwemer did
look at the sky, and they had to have noticed groupings of stars.
Perhaps they also noticed the effect that they had on those born
under them, too.
--------------------
Greater Dwemer Ruins - more rusted cogs, homocidal
Animunculi and neon lights than you can shake a stick at.
The Fire of Ashurnibanipal - Daedric treasures,
Flame Monarchs, and maybe the start of something big ...
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I like that
theory Vireyar, even though there is one more constellation than
there is picture in Bams. Here would be my guesses at how they match
up:
1- Agree
2- Agree
3- Steed It almost looks like a
little riding area above the neck of the creature but that also
could be another of its hands
4- Argee
5- Lord
6-
Agree
7- Agree
8- Shadow
9- No
clue
10-Thief
11-Mage
12-Lady
So that would leave
either Apprentice or Lover for 9 but it doesn't really look like
either, so I may have messed some of the others up as well.
--------------------
Life's not a race.
Keeper of the
Gate to Oblivion
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Interesting
post, though here's my question....why is the dwemer city beneath
the plaza so radically differant looking from every other dwemer
ruin. Sure it was their capital city, but in my opinion, the
differance in architecture and general aesthetics is so extreme that
frankly, it seems as though Bethesda merely disregarded what they
created in Morrowind, and crafted an entirely new look for the
dwemer in Tribunal. Also...anyone else wonder why there aren't any
dwemer ruins (not even one) in Bloodmoon?
just some of my
gripes...
Gasfiend
--------------------
"Check the
stove, I think I smell gas...."
Member
of The Forum Scholars Guild
Check out my
new mod, The Iron Plague at www.freewebs.com/gasfiendssmokestack
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Perhapse you
could figure out if this is true by looking in the editor.
--------------------
Phsyco Goupie! ( Best Viewed with some insense )
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| Enternall_fish |
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Well bloodmoon
might be because it wasn't discoverd during the 1st Era, or pherhaps
that it was to cold or dangerous for the Dwemer.
And for the
change of the Architacture, i think its pretty much the same, only
bigger and well it looks much better IMO, like it was build for
royalty.
--------------------
Some people say you are
what you think but what if you don't think.
Librarian of Jesus Forums
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| drakkarDVG |
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I'm back after
more research, as well as some pondering.
Bamz-Amschend,
Hearthfire Hall, the entrance to what we know of as a great city.
The works are called in the editor "Dwemer Slates".
I also thought it might be an interpretation of the
astrology of TES, but they seem to have a Dwemer twist.
00.
(What had been my #1) Looks to be either partially or fully
mechanical.
01. The fallen slate. "The Lady"?
02. Seht? Only
if our thinking about the timeline had been incorrect, or Seht had
been alive and experimenting with his "apparatus" long before the
Battle at Red Mountain. But I still see a resemblance with the
apparatus, or possibly someone tied at the wrists. If you look
closely at the edges of the slate,you may see this too.
03.
Female figure. I'd guess this isn't "The Lady"
04. The helmeted
figure holding something. Is it yet another construct? An important
figure in Dwemer history? In Tamrielic history?
05. The
ash-zombie. Or what I think is one. The "hole in head" thing seems
too perfect. How much did the Dwemer know about corprus? And how
long did they know it?
06. THe serpent... or a dragon?
07.
The scarab is Lorkhan, but I think for the Dwemer it probably refers
to his heart. I've wondered, why does this same symbol show up at
the Redoran canton in Vivec?
08. What I thought may be a khajiit
or an orc? I think the "tail" may be a staff or long mace. The pose
is interesting, if it is a khajiit, it looks to be a ... what do
they call the jaguar-men? But it appears it has raised its paws to
fight.
09. The Tower? Maybe, but I think it also refers to Red
Mountain.
10. What I thought may be a multi-limbed construct.
11. The bearded warrior. The saber gets me. Not many Dwemer or
Dunmer-Chimer seemed to carry sabers. The beard and ears tell me
that it definitely is one of the two races.
I've re-numbered
to slates to match the editor, it now goes clockwise, starting from
the same slate as I did, but now it starts at 00. instead of 1. The
most interesting to me are #s 01., 06., and 11., but I can't ignore
the others.
You know, I've never been that interested in the
disappearance of the Dwemer until now.
--------------------
Seen any elves?
Edited by drakkarDVG (08/11/03 10:52 PM)
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| Vireyar |
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First,
regarding the lack of Dwemer presence on Solstheim, it was suggested
in another forum (I think Morrowind Mods, but possibly Bloodmoon
General or Spoilers) that there wasn't enough geothermal activity to
support the Dwemer there - they do seem to be dependent on
geothermal power. It might also be that a strong werewolf presence
there drove them off (if werewolves lived on Solstheim at the time).
Whether the Dwemer worshipped the Daedra or not, they certainly
would have had to have respected Hircine's children.
Second,
thank you Nazz, and I hadn't noticed there was an unequal amount of
plates and constellations. The one I'm having most difficulty
placing now is actually the scarab/Lorkhan. I dragged all the plates
into a test cell in the CS, and also the birthsign tapestries (the
ones that were available, anyway - oddly enough the number of
birthsign tapestries matches with the number of Bamz-Amschend
plates, but I am sure this is coincidence), and tried to match them
up. The one that could be the Serpent (in_dwe_slate06 in the CS)
seems more like the Ritual to me - it might be a bit of a stretch,
but take a look.
So that would leave either
Apprentice or Lover for 9 but it doesn't really look like either, so
I may have messed some of the others up as well.
If the
Sermons of Vivec can be trusted, at least in part, Vivec said
something to the effect that love is an emotion of which the Dwemer
know nothing. Again, might be a bit of a stretch, but the Apprentice
fits more with the spirit of that plate than the Lover, and could
explain the absence of a Lover plate. Maybe.
05. The
ash-zombie. Or what I think is one. The "hole in head" thing seems
too perfect. How much did the Dwemer know about corprus? And how
long did they know it?
I think this plate is the Shadow,
as Nazz suggested. I'm almost completely certain that corprus
existed only after Dagoth Ur was exposed to the Heart, went mad,
resurrected the Sixth House, etc. - which was definitely after the
Dwemer disappeared. I'd venture to say that the only Dwemer who
knows anything about corprus is Yagrum Bagarn, and that's only
because he's afflicted with it.
10. What I thought may be
a multi-limbed construct.
Looking more closely at this
one, it almost appears to me that there is a humanoid figure at the
very top - I can make out what could be his head. This might
be a Dwemer version of the Steed - riding into battle on a massive
war machine.
--------------------
Greater Dwemer Ruins - more rusted cogs, homocidal
Animunculi and neon lights than you can shake a stick at.
The Fire of Ashurnibanipal - Daedric treasures,
Flame Monarchs, and maybe the start of something big ...
Post Extras: |
| Nigedo |
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I would say
that 9 (in_dwe_slate04) is probably the Apprentice. It looks like a
forge worker, wearing a long apron and handling a heavy tool of some
kind.
Also number 10, (in_dwe_slate03) could be the Lover.
She appears to be performing a (seductive) dance.
That would
leave the Thief unrepresented, though I'm at a loss to say why, so
10 could be the Thief, I guess, since it seems more likely that the
Dwemer would omit the Lover. 
--------------------
Dean of The
Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
We go different, and in thunder
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies
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| drakkarDVG |
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I've done a
little more investigating, and it leaves me with more questions than
answers.
If these do represent the birthsigns, why is one
omitted? What sign could Lorkhan's heart represent? Are the stories
that we hear about Dwemer culture true?
After all, most come
from Tribunal sources, various Dunmer, and a few from others in the
Empire. I wouldn't exactly trust Alexander the Great to give us an
accurate depiction of the Persian court.
Could the Dwemer have
been more spiritual than we are led to believe? Might they be a
seventh House of Dunmer?
Anyway,...
00. I think we are
agreed, this is the Atronach. A Dwemer centurion, possibly, a
"cyborg"? Probably not in our way of thinking.
01. THe Lady,
although I don't believe we have ever seen a real female Dwemer, nor
have I ever read or heard of one.
02. I have completely abandoned
the idea that this is Sotha Sil, unless as I have already said, our
view of the timeline is fundamentally wrong. I do think it is the
Lord, but also can't forget the bound or connected arms. The arms
appear either mechanical or skeletal. Who or what does this
depict?
03. The Lover, I suppose, and if you look, you won't see
any ears. I think the idea that the Dwemer don't know of love is
probably propaganda. The sermons are full of crap that I think Vivec
now regrets writing, this could be another lie.
04. The
apprentice? I don't know. Then whos the mage? If its the mage, as I
suspect, then I can't point out the apprentice! What is it? I don't
know, a scientist/mage with a mechanical arm?
05. The shadow? I
don't know. It immediately struck me as an ash-zombie, but I was
wrong before too, so once again, if we are right in our thinking on
the timeline, then this may be impossible. So what is it? Even if it
is the Shadow, what does it mean to the Dwemer? What is this
thing?
06. The serpent. Is it The Serpent? I think so. Have the
Dwemer encountered anything like a serpent, or is it just legend to
them?
07. The Scarab. What sign could this be? I think it may be
The Shadow, as in the missing/unseen god, but this is
speculation.
08. What the heck is this thing? How does it pertain
to the signs? Nazz seemed to think its The Lord, but why? I do think
it is a tail, but what about you?
09. Is The Tower Red
Mountain?
10. The Steed? If so, the Dwemer should have been an
enormous threat to the Dunmer, considering all of their
weapons. Also considering this was way back in the day, how could
Nerevar have defeated them? If you look at the Temple shrines of
Nerevar, he looks like hes no more than a tribal leader.
11.
THis has me interested. The Warrior. Bear with me, please. Go to
either the door to Akulakhans chamber, or to the door to Arkngthand.
On both you will find the same imag, one that is very much like our
slate here.
Notice that along with the presence of only 12
signs, that the slates are arranged on the walls 4/3/4/1. It
probably means nothing, but seems unbalanced to me.
As for
the comments about the architecture being different from the other
Dwarven Ruins, remember that those were citadels, fortresses, and
this is a "city". Go look at the Clockwork City, if you can, and
tell me that it doesn't look like it was built by the Dwemer. Aside
from the lack of Dwemer writing on the structures, the style seems
much more Dwemer to me than Dunmer, and its too advanced to have
been designed before by the Chimer. Could Sotha Sil have used an a
Dwemer ruin for his city? Could his apparatus be of Dwemer design,
or influenced by similar equiment used by them?
I'm beginning
a more expansive study of the Dwemer, but I don't know if it'll have
a satisfying conclusion. So many others have attempted this that I'm
tempted to abandon its pursuit, but I'm not sure I can. Anyway, I'm
a home schooled student trying to graduate early, in the next two
months, and can't spend too much time on this yet. Yet . I
want to thank whoever has looked at the slates themselves as part of
this study for their active participation in what I'm now
considering my current Scholars Guild project.
--------------------
Seen any elves?
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| Nazz |
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I did some
more research into this subject and here is what I was able to come
up with.
Each birthsign has a season and each season is
assosiated with one of Tamriels months. The Serpent is the exception
to this, it has no season but "wanders" the heavens attacking the
other constelations. This is why the serpent has no tapestry picture
it is seen as an outcast and a bad omen to be born
under.
Hearthfire Hall seems to be named after the Tamriel
month of Hearth Fire which is the ninth month and has the birthsign
of The Lady, which is also the slate that is under the rubble though
I doubt there is any significance to that.
I still think 02
is the mage. With that long wrobe with the dwemer writting on it it
just looks like a dwemer version of a mage.
I think 06 has to
be the serpent. Those look like teeth in the mouth area and it
appears to have a snake like tounge as well. Even though it does
bear a little resemblance to the ritual tapestry I'm going to stick
with the serpent.
I can't explain it but 08 just says "The
Lord" to me. I don't think that the thing your calling a tail is
that, to me it looks like a sword sheath.
The picture thats
on the doors in some of the Dwemer strongholds isn't the same as the
warrior picture. Its kind of similar but they aren't the same
--------------------
Life's not a race.
Keeper of the
Gate to Oblivion
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| Klinefelter |
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im gonna
address the question as to why the ruins under the plaza are so
different from the rest of the ruins. the ruins under the plaza were
sealed from the surface for who knows how long. the other ruins you
encounter were not. they were open to anyone who felt like taking a
gander inside, and as so, got filthy and rusty.
--------------------
If it ain't Scottish, it's Crap.
the
forums are free, and so is speech. so let's not poop ourselves when
someone says something off-topic.
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| Nigedo |
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Recent
research into the Dwemer language and, in particular, the Dwemer
observatory at Stros M'Kai have cast new light upon this
mystery.
See this thread for an analysis of the constellations
represented by the Dwemer slates discovered in
Bamz-Amschend.
The only Bamz-Amschend slate not represented
at the Stros M'Kai observatory is Slate 06 which represents 'The
Serpent' constellation, which has no fixed (and therefore no
chartable) relative position.
The slate that is missing from
Bamz-Amschend would appear to be 'The Ritual'.
--------------------
Dean of The
Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
We go different, and in thunder
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies
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| DarkKhala |
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Maybe Sotha
Sil was a Dwemer! 
--------------------
"Here I stand on a balcony of my
broken citadel, cursed, as the moon is, to be forever alone"
"But the kilt was only for everyday wear. In battle we
would wear full sequened dresses, the object was to blind our
enemy."
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| TSBasilisk |
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1.) Where the
heck did that come from?
2.) Why did you resurrect this
topic?
3.) Sotha Sil was NOT a Dwemer. He was a powerful
Chimer mage, who eventually asceneded to godhood. He was a member of
the minor House Sotha, destroyed in 2920 by Mehrunes Dagon.
--------------------
Member of the Forum Scholars Guild
Member of Greater Dwemer Ruins, Modder in charge of Nchuleft
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What the hell
do you need to move those switches? and whats with that 3/4 of the
way done robot? I think that they were way too advanced for their
time. I want to know what killed them and how can I get to that
other dimension that the last remaining dwarf went to?
--------------------
Councilor of the Dark Assassins.
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| TSBasilisk |
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1.) What
switches?
2.) The Dwemer were experimenting with those big
golems, most likely. You can find pieces of the same type of golem
in Kagrenac's Study.
3.) The Dwemer were advanced because
they studied the death of the Ehlnofey. In so doing, they discovered
the laws of nature, which were created by the death of the Ehlnofey.
Understanding those laws allowed easier manipulation and
side-stepping of them.
4.) We don't know if they were killed
or not. The common belief is the Dwemer of Bamz-Amschend suffered
the same fate as those in Hammerfell and on Vvardenfell when the
Heart was activated during the Battle of Red Mountain. They
disappeared, and nothing else is known.
5.) The Outer Realms
is where Yagrum went. How he removed himself and journeyed there is
unknown. There are some locations where a person can leave the
mortal plane and cross to Oblivion, but if the Dwemer used such
locations is unknown.
--------------------
Member of the
Forum Scholars Guild
Member of Greater Dwemer Ruins, Modder
in charge of Nchuleft
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